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Pattern Shift
Hi! My name is Saskia de Feijter and welcome to the Pattern Shift podcast. In this podcast, I support overwhelmed small business owners in the fiber and needlecraft industry, helping them set up and organize their businesses for growth and personal well-being. Together, we can be a force for good and a counterbalance to fast fashion, helping makers craft garments and accessories slowly and more sustainably. You can be part of that change and make a profit in the process.
Pattern Shift
#48- Elizabeth Joy of Conscious Style explaining conscious and sustainability lingo
In this episode, you’ll hear from Elizabeth Joy of Conscious Style.
Elizabeth is a content creator that cares about fashion and style in a conscious way. We talk about green washing, the use of wording and descriptions in the field of conscious fashion and educating through podcasts and other channels.
Elizabeth Joy
MAIN TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS EPISODE
- The Big Brands often co-opt words used in the small, sustainable, earth-loving, crafting community and uses them to make money / green-washing
- “Ethical Fashion” is one of those terms
- “Circular Fashion” is a system that doesn’t produce waste and the items have no real “end-of-life”
- Items can be reused, recycled, upcycled, or sent back / repaired, etc
- Ex: Thousand Fell Sneakers - US https://www.thousandfell.com/
- Ex: MUD Jeans - NL https://mudjeans.nl/
QUOTES FROM THIS EPISODE
“When you search a term like, ‘ethical fashion’, a term like ‘sustainable fashion’... you see the Google ads of brands that are totally not sustainable. It’s really frustrating, right? They have the money, they have the budget to sort of, green-wash their way into sustainability, which… it feels like we’re up against a lot but, yeah. I just really think it’s important to educate; try to educate as many people who will listen and who are curious.”
LINKS FROM THE EPISODE
What Elizabeth’s Wearing - Jewelry / Clothing Swap Service https://www.swapsociety.co/
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Hi, my name is Saskia. I've got over a decade of experience in running a small business in the needle craft industry. I'm obsessed with the healing magic of crafting and the power of community. dreaming big about a world where we rely on value based businesses, the kindness economy, and where we can fully say, Fuck fast fashion. A smaller life aims to inspire you to look at your wardrobe differently. Where do you buy? How do you use your clothes? And can you make some of it yourself? We learn from experts in the needlecraft textile and creative industry big names and small about what it's actually like to run a small business. I'm educated in marketing and photography and learn to do everything else on the job selling pets and and product design, teaching and running a needlecraft school. As a small business owner, you're in charge of everything, branding, marketing, selling, promoting and cleaning the loo emotional talks with sellers about wins and woes, product and design conscious decision making, why we do it, how we do it, and what we need to become the future of fashion without burning the help apps. And I'm determined to lift our Cena for the world to notice so they can step away from fast fashion. This time, we are talking to Elizabeth joy. Elizabeth is the founder and editor of the mindful media side conscious life and style, the host of the conscious style podcast and the content creator behind conscious style on Instagram. Elizabeth also manages the conscious fashion collective platform. So lots of consciousness right there. I wanted to talk to Elizabeth about all the terms we use in our space of conscious fashion and in the textile industry. So she will get into what certain words mean and what they're used for. And if the meaning is used in different ways. We also talk about content creation and values and the complexities of running a value based business, the podcast and the other platforms that Elizabet hosts have so much valuable information. You can look at it this way, where Elizabeth focuses on education on conscious fashion, I am more focused on the creating part the making the craft side of it. Her podcast is such a great way to do a little bit of investigating and researching what it all means and what's important. So her first few episodes really dive deeper into explaining the terms used in our conscious industry. And if you subscribe to her newsletter, you get this whole list of resources. It's amazing. So she'll mentioned that at the end. Thanks so much for listening and enjoy my conversation with Elizabeth joy. Welcome, Elizabeth. I'm so glad you are here talking to me in the podcast.
Elizabeth Joy:I'm super excited to be here and be on your show. Saskia, thank you so much for inviting me on.
Saskia de Feijter:I can't wait because we have talked a little bit before and I'm positive that you are going to teach me so much again. This time you are like a vessel of information and I can't wait to start. So thank you. I first wanted to ask you what are you wearing? Could you tell us a little bit about your outfit?
Unknown:Yeah, so I'm wearing a People Tree dress. It's like blue and white. It kind of reminds me of like the Grecian islands you know I'm mentally escaping there with this dress. I think I caught it like four or five years ago I believe it was part of like a partnership that I was doing with my blog and I got it gifted and I just I just love this piece. It's like a house dress. Just super comfy. I look put together with like One Piece super simple. And I'm barefoot but I would wear these sandals from this brand salt and umber that I have that are like raffia and they're also like super comfy and summery. And I would probably wear some jewelry from swap society as well. I mean, it's a US based swapping platform where you send in your jewelry and clothes that you no longer want. And then like get points to get other people's secondhand clothing and jewelry. So I had having, yeah, I've been having a lot of fun with it, especially with jewelry because I never like, I never buy jewelry. So it's been really fun. You know, it's all point, you know, you can swap a jacket that you have for jewelry. So like, you can get totally different items. If you have too much of one thing, I don't know, if I'm another it's really fun. Oh, that
Saskia de Feijter:is very interesting, I'm definitely going to explore that and see if there's a version of it. In Europe, I can research and we can share in the show notes. That sounds a lot like a lot of fun. And it's also really cool. If you have like this one piece item that you're completely put together. In Holland, you wouldn't not be able to do that throughout the year because we have seasons. But I do love the style. And I complimented you on your outfit and then thought of this question. So in all fairness, I could also share what I'm wearing. And as you are wearing a PPL three outfit, which is a conscious clothing brands right they make sure they they do fair payments, and they do the things that we love brands to do and function. I am going to tell you I'm wearing okay, I'm looking down and wearing leggings, Cornwall, which is a UK based business, actually also my T shirt is from the same brand. I bought them because they do plus size. The cotton is organic cotton. And the shipping is done from the UK and not completely positive where everything is made. But it checked quite a few of my boxes, my personal values, so that was good. But in all transparency. I'm also wearing Levi's, jeans skirts, which I know on the scale of sustainability and conscious points wouldn't score very high. But I bought it because they did have the plus size range. And this is an item that was completely missing from my wardrobe. I can wear it with almost anything is kind of like a style staple. This will last me for ages. So that was my thinking in that it was okay for me to get it rather than buying three or four different skirts.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. And that's why I love this concept of conscious fashion conscious style. It's about being intentional doesn't always have to be the from the most perfect brand, but it's about doing the best that we can with what we have available to us and with what works for our lifestyles and our bodies and all that stuff. So it's not about like making the most perfect 100% sustainable choice but a really thoughtful conscious one, I think.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, exactly. It will be so tiring it would burn us out, right? If we have to do everything, right. That's not the idea. It's kind of, like, get your information. And if you can get your information in a fun and easy way like listening to podcasts, or reading blogs that would make a kind of more of a fun journey or adventure and I love pointing out that there is not that heavy, you have to vibe around it like a lot of people when I when I meet them and when I talk to them, and I'm going on about sustainability and consciousness and they're like oh, they're getting all nervous and they try to explain why the they are not wearing something like that or why they have this certain knitting project and I'm always like no no please It's not about being sustainable angels or something conscious and so conscious is in the title of your brand's the conscious life and style websites the conscious style podcast Do you feel like it's getting to be a like a buzzword and it's losing its its meaning a little bit?
Unknown:Yeah, I mean, I think all of these words are you know there may be there in the community and there may be authentically used for a couple of years and then they're sort of CO opted by the bigger fashion industry. I mean, I think every every word is you know sustainable fashion was conscious fashion. You know, thinking of a certain fast fashion brands nor eco collect Shen then they call it a conscious collection. You know, circular fashion has definitely been brainwashed and CO opted in the past couple of years. Even regenerative fashion has been sort of greenwash, which is kind of sad. And also, I would even say ethical fashion has been, especially when I think about, like, when we'll get into what all these terms mean, or like, you know, my take on what these terms mean. But, you know, we see brands calling a vegan plastic bag ethical, okay, so it wasn't made from animal skin, but is virgin synthetic plastic material? Is that really ethical when we're in a climate crisis? You know, so the latest term I've heard is like responsible fashion, but I think that term is gonna be greenwashed, too. So you know, we just have to my take on it is that none of these words are going to stay perfect or stay great. It's just, I think it's sort of about defining them and educating people and what they really mean, so that when these big fashion brands use the terms, we can identify and be like, Oh, that's not really sustainable. It's not really conscious. Just because they're saying it is doesn't mean that it is. Because we always are like finding a new word. But the second we find another word, the industry is like CO opting it. So yeah, it's hard.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah. And so yeah, you're saying about education. I think that people in general in the field of, at least in the field of crafting, but I also think fashion in general, people really get their information about sustainability, mostly from the brands themselves. And that's such a, like a watered down definition of what things actually are and what they mean. That is what I think is happening, like lots of people think, why should I educate myself, I already know that I should do this or this or this, but then they don't realize that most of that information. And most of that knowledge comes directly from the marketing team of of the brands. This is actually the biggest reason that I wanted to talk to you, your podcast and your platform and your website is, is kind of hovering over what I do. It's like the top of the you trickle down into the the part where you make your own clothes, which is what I'm focusing on. But you spend a lot of energy and effort on educating people about this industry, the fashion industry and the dark side of the, but also how to focus on going into that to the good side. So could you talk to us a little bit about those words and your idea of them and what they mean to you?
Unknown:What? Yeah, I'm totally with you that I think a lot of the confusion comes from that a lot of the so called education right now is coming from the brands because they're the ones with the money. And it really frustrates me as somebody who has been, you know, I've had this website, I've been doing this for like six years. And I'm not even, you know, one of the first of course, there's people who've been doing it much longer. And then I see that when you search a term like ethical fashion a term like sustainable fashion. You see the Google ads of brands that are totally not sustainable. It's really frustrating, right? They have the money, they have the budget to sort of greenwash their way to sustainability, which it feels like we're up against a lot. But yeah, I just really think it's important to educate and try to educate as many people who will listen and who are curious. But yeah, so I guess I'll start with ethical Bastion, because that's sort of how I got my way into this movement. And I feel like it's something that's really important to me. So, ethical is, you know, our morality, right? It can be subjective, it can be sort of like what we value, you know, so this term can be sort of ambiguous, because, you know, is it locally made? Or is it fair trade from another country? Is it responsibly sourced regeneratively? Raised, you know, wool sweater or is it a vegan organic cotton sweater, you know, might depend on your values. But I tried to keep in mind what I learned in philosophy class that, you know, the golden rule of moral philosophy is, do unto others as you would like dawn on to you. You know, would you want to work in the conditions that the makers are working in to make your outfit and I think that will tell you If it's an ethical piece, right? Would you want to work in the factory where your shoes were made? Would you want to work there every day for the rest of your life? Would you want your child, your daughter, your mother, you know, whoever. I think that that tells you a lot. And then like the platinum rule of moral philosophy is even stronger. Right, like Do unto others as they want to be treated by you. And think, are they happy? Their art? Do they want to be working? You know, 80 hours in sweatshop light conditions? No. And I think that there's this idea that people from the global south and these countries are like, so grateful for these jobs, that they're like happy with these poor conditions, and it's just so dehumanizing. Nobody deserves to be in that, even if that's their only option. That's not. That's not right, that that's their only option. So there's a lot to think about their cycling.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, I just recently learned, and maybe I'm a little bit like blushing, saying that it's been recent, but there's so much to learn. Every day, I see new things. I read new things. As a non native English speaker, I didn't realize the difference between a minimum wage and living wage a living wage. And in some countries is like three times the minimum wage is only barely making a living wage. And that was a big aha moment for me.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. Living Wage is such a big topic within ethical fashion. I think that's sort of the core demand of all, you know, the advocacy organizations, garment makers, labor organizers, it's the wages, you know, these brands can say that they're having all these empowerment programs, and this and that training, and at the end of the day, what are the workers demanding higher wages, living wages? If a brand is not talking about wages, then their claims on ethics are sort of ethics washing or fair washing, or greenwashing, or whatever you want to call it? So that's what I would say in terms of watch what to look out for, I would say, is the brand talking about wages, whether they're publishing the actual wages, like nisolo does, or which is an American brand, I'm not sure if everyone's familiar with them, or are they, you know, saying we pay triple the minimum wage, or we pay double the average wage something specific and like tangible like that, I think it's good to look for.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, yeah. Thanks. Yeah. So that's ethical as a term. And I think whenever you see ethical, you have to stop and take a moment and think about how they use it, what the context is, and, and then decides what you think. Yeah, that's exactly right. So what are typically other terms that we hear in the field of fashion and textile in Yeah,
Unknown:I think that the probably the biggest one is sustainable fashion. And the reason I started with ethical fashion is because I believe that sustainable fashion is sort of a combination of like, eco fashion, like ecologically responsible fashion, eco friendly fashion, you know, environmentally aware, and ethical fashion, like, to me sustainable fashion has to be about planet, and people and you know, all the living things that are with us on the planet. So, yeah, sustainable fashion is really used a lot. We see it used by fast fashion brands when they use like, you know, 20%, recycled material or whatever in their garments. But really sustainable fashion to me is like, ideally, the most holistic term that we can use, because it's like, are we operating in a way this could be sustained forever. And I think achieving sustainable fashion and is sort of pretty much impossible in our, you know, current and current system. But I think that if we view it as sort of as a verb, you know, we're working towards it for it's a, you know, we're trying to become more sustainable. I think that is such an incredible goal. Are we using natural fibers? Are we using you know, plant based dyes are we really making high quality because it doesn't matter what material you're using if that garment was Designed to fall apart after two wears, this can't be really sustainable, which is why I would say, fast fashion brands really can't call themselves sustainable because they're reliant on overproduction and over consumption and the scale that they operate on, can't be sustained. You know, h&m makes 3 billion garments per year. And you know, who knows how many she and makes they don't publish that data, but I'm sure it's even more good. You really produce that every year, and we could still have a livable planet, you know, probably not. So
Saskia de Feijter:I talked to Zoe Edwards of the check your thread podcast a while back. And I know what she would say she would say never use, like sustainable, but always more, more. Yeah. So she, we check in with each other, and she corrects me. All the time. She goes, I know it's not sustainable. It's more sustainable. We try, because the most sustainable action you can take is stopped breathing. There's some Dutch humor for you, right? Yeah, so that's sustainability? And how about
Unknown:circular? Yeah, yeah, that's a term has gotten really popular in the past couple of years. So I sort of have this like four step framework to circular fashion that I sort of made based on research that I did on this topic. So I'll just sort of list out the four steps that I see. Because circular fashion is, you know, a circle. There's a lot of steps along the way. But it basically, in a sentence, I see it as a system that doesn't produce waste. And also there is no real end of life. So, you know, first of all, like the first step of the four would say is we're producing and consuming less. So as I was talking about sustainable fashion, there becomes a point where it just the scale is not sustainable. The scale is not circular. what possibly could we do with these 250 billion garments, you know, being produced for a year, it's too much to try to keep into a circular system. And then the second step, I would say, is design out waste and design with the end in mind. So that starts with like the designer thinking, okay, how can I reuse existing textiles are making sure that I'm using every piece part of the fabric when I'm developing my dress, and also not polluting? So I think that this is what I see recycled synthetics as not, it might be a stopgap solution, like a little bit better for the time being. But in the long term, I don't think that, like synthetics can be part of a truly circular system, because at the end of the day, they're still polluting, and pollution is waste. Yeah. So the fabric might, we might not be wasting the fabric. Or, you know, not, you know, we're using these recycled plastic bottles or whatever. But we're still like shedding micro plastics along the way, polluting waterways, polluting the air. So is it really circular when plastic is involved? You know, but yeah, for the time being, okay, you know, maybe we have to, we have to work with what we have. So, yeah, and then like, sort of like the second part of Step two is designed with the end in mind. So are you either designing that garment to be recyclable, repairable, recyclable, and or compostable? So, you know, what is the end of life of that garment? What is the plan when that garment when that person is done wearing it? Yeah. And then the third step is to extend a garments life as long as possible. So this is sort of where the everyday individual comes in, we can rewear what we have as much as possible. If it no longer suits us, or fits us, you know, we can swap it, we can sell it, we can loan it out. There's like these peer to peer rental apps now. So you can like rent out your closet, which is really cool. And from a brand side also, are they offering repair programs? Are they offering resell programs and that kind of stuff? And then the fourth step is how are we managing that pieces, quote, unquote, end of life? So as I said, I think a circular system there is no end, right? A circle doesn't have an end. So are we how are we regenerating it in a way so like, if it's compostable sort of returning to the soil and helping, you know if it's was made with like, organic, healthy dyes and fabrics, it's maybe you know, helping replenish nutrients in the soil, or, you know, is it totally D constructible. So that it can be turned into something new. Can we sort of like turn it into something else and upcycle it so and then This system starts all over again. Right? So once we've like upcycle, that maybe into a new garment, then now we extend that life again, and it kind of like goes round and round.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, yeah. And we're talking about the circle from the perspective of a designer of a brand. But you can look at that as a consumer as well, I think, yeah, whenever you make or buy a new item, knowing what the mix of fibers is, and knowing if it can be composted or not, just having that kind of information really helps to make better decisions. Just a practical example. If we talk about jeans, we know that jeans is one of the worst kinds of fabric you can buy in terms of the amount of water and toxics that I use and all of that. But if you buy stretch jeans, it's even worse, because then I think usually it's about 25 to even 30% of fibers that make that make it stretch. If you were to put your jeans on the ground and wait and see what happens, then there's this skeleton of plastic that will be left after the cotton has vaporize. What's the verb?
Unknown:Right, the cotton can compost? The plastic is sort of left there. Yeah,
Saskia de Feijter:yeah. So the knowledge about fibers and how things are put together and how you could mend them, like jeans is easy to mend in lots of ways. So, ya know, thinking about debt can make it more can you can make more circular decisions, I guess.
Unknown:Yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, I think like a circular system is collaborative. There was one of the founders of the sneaker brand 1000 foul, which is sort of a circular minded sneaker brand, you can take apart the components and remake new sneakers. And they have a program for that. But they were saying, you know, a brand and individual brand can't really call themselves fully circular, because it involves a whole system, the consumer has to participate in that circular system, the you know, the governments have to support recycling infrastructure, so that even if a garment or you know, is recyclable is actually getting recycled.
Saskia de Feijter:Exactly, yeah. Consumers, we should sign contracts when we buy something saying, I recycle this by the end of its life in the right way.
Unknown:Yeah, and 1000 Fall has a brilliant system that I would love to like, just share and maybe inspires if there's any other like brands out there. And I think it also could be a good system for like policy makers, too. They have a deposit system. So they say, you know, their sneakers are I think $100 plus a$25 deposit. So you're paying$125. But if you give your sneakers back at the end of their life, you get the $25 back, and it's similar to this recycling system in Germany, where you pay like, you know, 25 cents for the glass bottle or whatever it is. And then you get it back or 10 sensor.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, that's what we do in the Netherlands as well. Cool. Yeah, I love that. And I love the idea of of mending servers that brands might have I think machines in the Netherlands Dutch friend, I think does that. And there's so many creative ways. Yeah, to do that. Awesome. So that's circular. Um, any other terms or words or wording you want to shine a light on?
Unknown:Yeah, I think one last one, which probably your audience is very familiar with is slow fashion, which is, you know, this sort of like this, like, hesitate to say timeless just because it has this connotation of being boring. But just like a transcends trends and fads and what's in and out and whatever. And you're just focusing on on what you find to be beautiful. And you're, you know, just slowing down how we consume and cherish fashion. So just slowing down our consumption. From brand side of course, it's producing fewer better things. But also from yet individuals perspective. It's just caring for what we have. Yeah, mending repairing it, upcycling it, giving it a good home if it no longer fits, you suits you and you know, maybe sewing your own clothes and and really going through that process. And really just I think you're just slowing down every aspect of the production
Saskia de Feijter:your life. Yeah,
Unknown:right. Right. And I You know, I think slow, slow fashion has also been starting to be co opted as well. But I feel like it sort of was like the last one, because no fast fashion brand can really say that they're slow. So yeah, maybe
Saskia de Feijter:we should hang on to that one a little bit more and claim it back.
Unknown:Yeah, right. Yeah,
Saskia de Feijter:I think and my podcast is, is called a smaller life for a reason. There's a lot of unlearning there, especially for me personally, as well. I've had to unlearn a lot of accumulation of things, having the need for things or the apparent need for things, wanting the latest color of nail polish all of that. I think I'm talks about this yesterday with a friend. I'm Gen Z, I think, no, I'm Generation X and Gen X, us and the generations after us, at least two generations after Gen X are bombarded with lots of things for not a lot of money. And we're trying to get this movement going. And it's like, I have this image now of a wave crashing on top of us. It's yeah, there's a lot of unlearning to do. And it has to do with ego, it has to do with confidence. If you are confident with yourself as a person with what you've experienced in life and what you've accomplished in life, then it's a lot easier to get to the point where you are, this isn't enough actually. Or I can now focus on getting really good items that could last a long time and still be fashionable. I mean, it's it's nice to, it's easier to have like a never ending timeless piece of fashion. My favorite is the baton shirt. And as I've said before, in the podcast, I've had all these plans of the basic wardrobe, the just the blue wardrobe, all these plans, but in real life, I just love color. I love fashion. And I think there's a way we can we can do all of it. But it's a lot of learning and unlearning. Do you think for lots of people, this is so overwhelming that they do not even start their journey into conscious fashion?
Unknown:Yeah, totally. I think there's the overwhelm. And I think yeah, there's these misconceptions about what sustainability is there's these conflicting messages. And I think the the worst is that with brands sort of leading the sustainability conversation, because they have the budgets to market to do so there's this idea that you have to spend a lot of money and you have to buy these certain things, ironically, which aren't even really sustainable. You have to buy all these things to somehow be sustainable. But like, actually, one of the most sustainable things that we can do is just live more simply. And yeah, by less, you know, of course, this is not everybody in the world, right? We're talking about, you know, largely the global north, global north, there's a lot of inequality in places like the US where people still don't have enough, and they might not have enough clothes. So I want to acknowledge that. But for those of us who do have enough or too much, perhaps still
Saskia de Feijter:make a difference. This group. Yeah,
Unknown:yeah. Yeah. And, like, so I recently read the book, the day the world stops shopping by JB MacKinnon, which I think your audience would love. Yeah, I hope it's available worldwide. It's a Canadian author. He was talking about some research done by might be like butchering this name, but Mara and Ingrid crop Feld that looked at like four types of people who aren't these quote unquote, mainstream consumers to identify what had the biggest impact. And so Maren, you know, studied environmentally conscious consumer. So people buying quote, unquote, green things through goals, which are people who take pleasure and saving money. tightwads so these are people who hate spending money and then voluntary simplify errs. And the people who are most successful at reducing their impact, like looking at the data, were actually the simple fires, not the environmentally conscious people who were maybe buying these green products. Like, they actually found that the green consumers didn't reduce their impact at all compared to like the mainstream consumer. So that was fascinating.
Saskia de Feijter:Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, is what you said earlier, the idea is not to get rid of everything you have and start shopping, writing, quote, unquote, the idea is to kind of stop shopping, use what you have, and every time you need, and then figure out what it is that what is need. Every time you need a new item, then you start thinking about whether you want to swap it or buy it or make it. And the whole process of that is slow in and of itself. What is it that I'm going to need next season so that now I can make a decision? What am I going to do? Am I going to sew it? knit it? Am I going to find it secondhand, and that will take a lot more time than just going online and press buy. So it's definitely a whole lifestyle change. But it's, it's fun. And I think lots of people have changed their lifestyle in different ways already. Like they eat differently, they travel differently. And it seems like fashion feels so overwhelming for a lot of people to start changing things. And I think it's up to us, like content makers and podcasters to to make it kind of fun and easy step in level.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah, I think it's a cultural shift. It's this cultural narrative. Like right now the sort of societal norm is, you're successful if you have these big fancy things, a fancy car, the fancy clothes, the tons of shoes and bags, and this the manicure the hairstyle, the you know, and it's like this constant sort of like consumption wheel that we're constantly spending money, and then we're maybe stuck in a job we hate and like, I feel like the pandemic was definitely a wake up call for many people, it sort of like forced us to press pause. It's really unfortunate that it had to be such a brutal and horrible, like, scary. And there's so it was so much loss. And it was so horrible. But it had to take that for us to like all take a collective pause. And I I wish that we could have sort of taken that reset without there being you know, a pandemic. Absolutely.
Saskia de Feijter:But yeah, but yeah,
Unknown:I think I think when we have this pause, and it might be also personal, perhaps you just burnout or you know, you start a family and you realize, oh, my gosh, I'm not spending time with my family, because I'm stuck on this wheel of by work by work, and just constantly, you know, going and sort of stepping out of that and being like, Okay, wait, how can I sort of slow down? Yeah,
Saskia de Feijter:exactly. So wow, thank you so much for explaining all these different words, and how people can focus on what the brands are actually saying. And if it's true, this will really help to get them to give them some more perspective. But let's now focus in a little bit on you and your work and how you step into the world to talk about this and share your message. What are your platforms? And what do you use?
Unknown:Yeah, so the main platform is the website conscious life and style that calm. And then I have like my instagram at conscious style. And then last year, I started the podcast conscious style podcast, which is specifically focused on fashion. So the website is like lifestyle and fashion. And then the podcast right now is pretty much exclusively fashion, it might change. But for now, it's all about sustainable fashion or more sustainable fashion. And you haven't like secondarily also manage the platform conscious fashion collective. So I used to work for Camilla Shane, who ran that platform who founded that platform. And then, you know, Camilla decided to step back. And so I purchased that platform, and also around that as well. So it's all about fashion to
Saskia de Feijter:cool. So you make a lot of content for the website. And for the podcast. You also have a newsletter that is very informational, full of really interesting facts and inspiration. Could you tell us a little bit about the process of the content creation and as my podcast is also for business owners and people that want to start a movement? Why is content creation so important?
Unknown:Thank you for remembering the newsletter. That's actually one of my favorite things to do every week is put together the conscious edit, as I call it, it's like my, I think my favorite second favorite after the pot Podcast. So I love
Saskia de Feijter:it. Everyone subscribe.
Unknown:Yeah, content creation. So I think that sometimes it can feel maybe like it's not as valuable as perhaps someone who's like researching these things or a policymaker, or, you know, an activist on the street protesting. I mean, obviously, you can combine these things, right, you can do both. But sometimes I do feel like, Oh, is it Matt? Does it matter? But then I'll get, you know, comments from people direct messages and Instagram emails, and people saying that, like, I learned so much from you, and the change, you're helping me on my journey. And, you know, I look to your resources to learn about this topic, and it kind of like, okay, it's sort of like reconfirms that like this matters, like it is having an impact on people. And also can have an impact in the industry, like, I'll hear from students who are studying fashion design, or, you know, fashion sustainability, or there may be working for a fashion brand, and that content can have an impact on them. So you never know, like the content that you put out there. You never know who that's reaching. And it doesn't have to reach a million people, it just has to reach people who really care about this stuff. Because each person, they can impact the company that were there working for, they can impact their whole family, they can impact their whole friend circle, like you don't as like one single content creator, you know, whether you're brand putting out blog posts, or you're a blogger, like your post doesn't have to reach everybody, it's sort of it just contributing to that ripple effect, that cascade of information, like you're maybe reaching 100 people, and then those 100 People can tell five people close to them. And you know, it can just all expand from there, you don't have to reach a million people to have an impact.
Saskia de Feijter:Exactly. Yeah, that's, that's that idea of the ripple effect is why I still do it. Plus, because I really love doing it. But I still feel that from one person to the next, we can still make a difference. And even if it's just a different for you, difference for you personally in your life, knowing that you do the best you can, is so valuable. I think us makers or content creators, or whatever you want to call us, we sometimes struggle with who am I to share all this information. I'm not a journalist. I'm not a trained journalist. But it's really important. And I think the feedback from the people that listen is so important, and just moving us forward. So everybody who's listening, it's really valuable to give feedback to podcasters bloggers to everyone that you kind of quote unquote, consume their content, because telling us why it's important to you, or what do you need, will help us to create the right content for you. And it's also for us, it's kind of I think, if I can fill this in, I think it's a mixture of something that comes from our hearts. And also because we think there's a need. So it's kind of a weird spot to be in as a maker that you want to kind of make a living with a mission. What's that like for you? Are there specific things that make it harder to do your work?
Unknown:Yeah, I think that there's a lot that we're up against in this space. And the you know, basically everything about the mainstream fashion industry feels like we're fighting against this really strong tide, like we're swimming in the opposite direction of the current it sometimes feels like that. Yeah, I think that finding your community actually interacting with people is really important because it can feel discouraging to see you know, fast fashion influencers or fast fashion brands that there are millions of followers and millions of likes, and you know, but I think that it's really important to just like, keep, like, in some ways, keep your head down and like focus on your work and in other ways, find your community as well and work with each other and collaborate. And I think that one of the things that I'm trying to also get better at is release this typical business mindset. I have a business degree and I don't know a standard a mainstream or whatever, like a business mindset and I had that work competition. And you're trying you're trying to beat each other. And you know, in if we if we're trying to build a better world, that is not a way to go about it, right, we need like collaboration. Just like circularity isn't possible unless we all collaborate because there's many, many pieces parts along the way, you know, slow fashion I think is only possible if we all work together. Like the real, quote unquote competition is like fast fashion right? Not each other, not other makers in the movement, not like slow fashion influencers versus slow fashion brands and makers. I think social media breeds a lot of negativity. And we have a negativity bias as humans and the social media algorithms, like somehow optimize that, I don't know a better way of saying that. So it can be really draining on social media. But if you can find a community sort of like off of social media, even if you, you know, direct message, a few people and like, hey, let's have a chat and like, really get to know each other. And it is possible to build community and social media. But I think it spending too much time on social media can be really discouraging, because for every, you know, 10 positive comments, there's a negative comment. And unfortunately, with our negativity bias, like we're going to that negative comment, it's going to be circling in our head, it can be very discouraging.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, exactly. I completely agree. Yeah. It's really interesting, though, because you said, You come from a business background, and I'm the opposite. I come from a maker designer. Okay, maybe marketing background. Yeah, lots of people in the craft and needle craft industry, they come from the passion and sometimes grow that out into a business. And then it goes the other way around. And then at a certain point, they need to become more professional to actually make a difference to scale to grow their business and be able to get the movement that they want to start going. So I think it's, as you say, a matter of working together and getting the talent of people that know how to build a business combined with people that know how to lead a mission. And, and obviously, people can have more than one talent. But working together is so much more powerful, and finding each other in community and working on that. And, as you say, staying away from that negative spiral. And the choosing is so important. So not go like I want this and this and this, but be happy with. And I have a lot to learn there. Because I might not be buying lots of clothes and accessories and shoes anymore. I still consume a lot of knowledge. And sometimes I get overwhelmed by my inbox. And I need to choose what is most important and have some focus on where I want to go with that knowledge building. So think focus, circularity, those are the things we working together, staying positive thing, those are the things we need to move forward. Yeah. Would you agree with you have anything to say to the entrepreneur that is listening at this moment?
Unknown:Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think you you've covered it, I guess the only maybe one I would add is just balance, and you know, not letting the work consume you. Because I think it's really, it's always hard for entrepreneurs and people who you know, own a business. But if you add on top of it, that it's something, it's your mission driven business, and it's something that you're personally, very deeply passionate about. It's easy for it to consume your entire life because it feels like your life's purpose, and your income and just everything is wrapped up in this business. But yeah, that's
Saskia de Feijter:not healthy. Yeah. Boundaries, boundaries. Yeah. So you just said that you have a business background. Can you tell us a little bit about how you started all of this? And what are your plans for the future?
Unknown:Yeah, so I started conscious life in style. When I was in college, I was actually trying to get an internship at a Fairtrade fashion brand, and I didn't really have any sort of relevant work to show for it. So I started a blog started writing about Fairtrade fashion and then use that to apply for the job and then it sort of cascaded from there. I got into the Instagram account, and I just became really passionate about it. And yeah, I was getting a business degree at the time. And I when I graduated, I worked like a nine to five job for a little bit, but I became it was really clear that I wanted to work more in this like, you know, fair and sustainable fashion field. And I started freelancing for brands on the side while like also running my blog and working this job and eventually quit the job doing the freelance and the business and then at the beginning As of last year, I actually went full time with conscious life and style. And so that's sort of where I am now. And this whole past year has been really about expanding the team adding more writers, you know, podcasts editor, partnerships manager, who helps me work out the partnerships, brands, pitch brands, respond to pitches, all that stuff, and virtual assistant. But I don't want to continue at that pace. I feel like sometimes there's this pressure as a business owner that you have to just like, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, pace, I feel like we've gotten to this point where I'm still like settling in to it. And I do believe in growing slow and mindfully, I mean, just be really intentional about like, where the business is going and not making rash decisions. So I think actually, in the near term future is going to be more about like, solidifying the foundations and sort of like, deepening the things that we're working on, rather than, like expanding and growing, you know, and just developing better partnerships with each of the people that are working on the team and thinking about ways that we can sort of expand our impact with what we have now. And then in the longer term future allow these ideas to expand more into like video content, and more like courses and other educational resources, and, you know, developing a community and all that kind of stuff, like, definitely that's on the horizon. But for now, I think just sort of like, really strengthening the community that we have increasing the engagement and, you know, my connection to the audience, the team with each other and to the business, if that makes sense.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, that sounds like a great strategy to date to take it slow and build on what you already have. I feel like I'm doing the same thing. I'm coming from a slightly different angle with the community in place and working on the courses. Now, there's different ways that you can get to the same point. So what would you say if you want to share is your business model? So for me, that is the community and the memberships I offer there? I've re installed my Patreon. And that is kind of a way that I'm slowly growing. How do you do it with your podcast? It's a hard way to make a buck. Right?
Unknown:Yeah, it is challenging, and there's no get rich quick scheme? No,
Saskia de Feijter:there's not.
Unknown:Yeah, I think that. So basically, the three forms of revenue that the business has right now our affiliates. So that's pretty much the website, I really don't share affiliate links on social media. And then secondarily, there's partnerships. So this upcoming are actually current season, we just started season four of the conscious style podcast, we do have a sponsor, which is, yeah, I'm super grateful for that. And excited because yeah, it was like a cost for a while was just like pure cost. So now we're at least like covering the expenses. Still not really making money with the podcast, but it's a passion project. And that's part of growing slow, is that it does so time. Yeah, like developing. And then the third is like ad revenue on the website. So like, the display ads, and you know, it's not my favorite. There's just as the show progressed, fashion brands, and I wish I could, you know, I don't have any control over those ads, which is really hard is like a conscious creator, but I don't want to take outside funding. And although these aren't ads that I believe in, I feel like, I sort of wrestle with that. Okay, like, I'd rather that then go into debt or sort of give up ownership of my business. That makes sense. Yeah, you know, and take a loan or someone has some sort of piece of the business, I want it to be 100% owned, and I can turn off these ads anytime I want, you know, hopefully next year, you know, as we're developing some of these other things, maybe like a course or other digital products, community, whatever it ends up, being, you know, hopefully that I can like kind of turn off those ads in the next year or so. And it's not a forever thing. It's just sort of like getting us through this time right now.
Saskia de Feijter:Yeah, it's definitely one of those challenges you have as a value based business that it's a lot harder to find funding, or do you work with ads? Do you work with sponsors? Who are those sponsors, when there's things I struggle with a lot? Like ideally, I would love it if every listener would be either a member of the community or a Patreon because then they would fund what I'm doing. That would be ideal that I would never have to make those decisions. So that is my goal, to get to a point where that is enough. And, again, what do you need, I don't need much, I need to feel valued in a way that people think that it's valuable, the content that I'm creating is valuable to them. It really helps if they can support that with, I don't know, a few euros or dollars or whatever it is. That would be ideal. But there's still a lot of work for us to do. And it's at least well, a lot of the time it goes to a full time business. And you just said for you. It's full time. For me, it's part time, but a lot of part time. Yeah, so yeah, it's definitely all those decisions that you have to make that are in line with your values. And sometimes, like just touching your values, and then you're just for the time being, and then we're wanting to do different things. And for me, as an example, I really love to be super transparent about these things. Because that makes it really clear to listeners, what what it's about. And for example, I had to stop the account, I pay for to do this transcriptions for my website, at a certain point, it was like, Okay, I need to take away every cost that is not absolutely necessary. And then I set on my Patreon, as soon as I have this many people, I will start paying for it again. And that will make the podcast more inclusive. But that kind of struggles with my values. I want it to be inclusive from the get go, right? So now I'm kind of doing this in between thing where I found a service that does it, and that had a really good deal. So I'm not at the Patreon level yet, but I just went ahead and took the deal. And I'm kind of hoping that we'll get to that Patriot level soon. But that's what it's like, isn't it in, in real life?
Unknown:Yeah, definitely. There's these there's these decisions all the time, like, do we do that? Or, you know, okay, what will that sacrifice constant decisions? And yeah, I have a lot of respect for people who are like community supported shows community supported content creators, because that is a lot of work. It's definitely slow growth, and very challenging. I haven't gone that path myself. I mean, perhaps with some sort of community, you know, that's something out in the future. But I used to be a freelancer working for content creators, and I saw how hard it was. And I think that influenced my decision that I wanted to maybe make the leap from my full time job, my nine to five job to the, to the content creator faster than that. And you know, we all make these decisions. And there's pros and cons to all of it. And the sponsored content, is, at the beginning. It was not I believed in the brands, but it's not the most fun content to create. And is it the most educational as I try to make it as educational as possible? But is it like, the most educational the most interesting, the most inspirational? You know, I don't know. Now, I am really lucky that now the platform has grown. I have so much more leeway or the ability to sort of be picky, I guess, and only work with people that I'm like, really like, Okay, this is offering something different. And I can really educate my audience with content for this brand. Yeah, I won't go on.
Saskia de Feijter:It comes back to that another time.
Unknown:Yes. Yeah. So you're coming on to the conscious style podcast, so maybe we can talk more about the struggles of being a missionary there.
Saskia de Feijter:This has been you've been so generous with your information we've learned so much. I mean, I've learned so much and I'm sure the audience has as well of the fashion industry in general but also what it's like to be content creator in a value based business. I think we covered all the different layers. Yeah, so much for your time and your inspiring information.
Unknown:Well, thank you so much for inviting me on this was such a joy that our just like flew by. I can't believe this was Oh yeah,
Saskia de Feijter:I know. I know. Oh, and where can people find you?
Unknown:Yeah, so yeah, the main place is conscious life and style.com Instagram at conscious style. The podcast is conscious style podcast and then as you mentioned the newsletter. You can subscribe that at conscious life and style.com forward slash subscribe
Saskia de Feijter:as smaller life is here, wills completely free way for makers and sellers to learn how to be part of a healthier take on clothes and fashion. Yeah, well offers an online community where they can connect and inspire each other monthly topics with challenges for makers and coaching and support for sellers. We will move the needle for more information go to J A hyphen w o l.com. Yep, oh,